Curse

Lorekeeper · Nov 06, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

lol you're a joke. Just because a team can beat a build means it can't be overpowered? People like you shouldn't be involved in balance discussions at all. Balance doesn't mean that a build that can be beaten means it can't be overpowered. It takes alot more skill to beat ritspike than it does for ritspike to beat anything else. Plenty of top teams have gotten beaten by ritspike.

so you agree with me and razzle? We said it matters not whether a build can be beaten or not - it can still be overpowered. You seem to be saying the same if i can sift through all your double negatives. Balances means different builds should have similiar rewards for similiar levels of skill, the balanced build rewards well for good teams, builds like rit spike and bloodspike reward well even for bad teams. Like you said yourself, rit spike needed a nerf because it required a lot more skill to beat than it did to run and it allowed some mediocre players to beat top teams. Bloodspike poses the same problem, just for a different portion of the ladder... it is most prevalent at the mid to lower levels where poor gvg players are able to compete and beat players in the mid levels... in essense the problem is the same... a build allowing lesser players to compete with better players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

People like you shouldn't be involved in balance discussions at all.

Meaning what? People only in top 10 guilds should be allowed to post in these forums? As far as i can tell noone has really posted anything without sound reasoning... which is all thats required to take part in discussions like these, you can take that elitist attitude elsewhere and im pretty confident you will not find much support if you continue to tell people their views are irrelevant just because they dont have gold or silver trim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

On another note, balancing should only be done in regards to top tier play. If not that, what are you using as a reference? RA? TA? What a joke. Any game that involves skill balances must have their balancing scaled to the highest level of play, or it doesn't mean anything at all. Understand that concept, then come back to this thread.

So any discussion that doesnt regard top tier gvg play is referring to TA or RA??? What about the rest of the ladder? Oh wait... i forgot... anyone who doesnt have a gold or silver trim is irrelevant as far as you are concerned.

Vaga · Nov 06, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

TA has no voice since there's no competitive side to it, just like HA barely gets any balance.

Yes, even though there are some people outside of the top like 20 guilds who know what they're talking about, Izzy should pretty much solely listen to the top guilds.

Lots of guilds in the past have gotten into gvg running a gimmick like blood spike so I would say that it's good to have a no skill spike build in the meta provided competent teams can beat it with a balanced build.

There's actually some broken stuff out there that needs to be fixed like inept/clumsi so it's dumb to complain about something that isn't even strong at the top level.

Razz L Dazzle · Nov 06, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

lol you're a joke. People like you shouldn't be involved in balance discussions at all.

Refering to whom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Just because a team can beat a build means it can't be overpowered?

Who's suggesting this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

It takes alot more skill to beat ritspike than it does for ritspike to beat anything else. Plenty of top teams have gotten beaten by ritspike.

Not sure i've read someone arguing that ritspike takes skill. Or more skill than the people they beat. The reason many top teams got beat is plenty enough reason to nerf it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

On another note, balancing should only be done in regards to top tier play.

Not sure saying ONLY is the best way to put this. Balancing should be centered around top tier play. Its goal should allow the best team to win. If spiritway and heroes are ruining the enjoyment of other players then i think those problems should be addressed as well. Fixing hero, spirit way won't change things at the top anyway. And it is a valid game balance concern. Bad players winning with necro heroes when they'd lose otherwise points to balance problems with the skills and mechanics involved. If good players can overcome these that still doesn't change the fundamental problems or soul reaping, , necro heroes, and other garbage.

Now if Izzy could only pick one thing to change and he chose fixing heroway/spiritway instead of problems at the top end of competitive play then there would be a problem. I don't see why both can't be addressed.

Yue · Nov 07, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

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Did all top 50 guilds have problems with heroway in GvG? Probably not but it got hit anyway... what about rit spike? Im sure some top guilds beat that consistently does that mean it shouldnt have got nerfed?

This I misunderstood.

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was just about to say the same myself, its very narrow minded to think that balancing should only ever be done in relation to the top tiers of play... there are other people to think about.

This is what I was referring to.

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Well, TA should actually have a voice, since it is an organised form of PvP. RA/AB/FA don't matter as they are random, but TA should get some consideration.

And this is just stupid.

Also, top tier play does not relate to teams that bloodspike/ritspike/crapway themselves to the top.

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

lol you're a joke. Just because a team can beat a build means it can't be overpowered? People like you shouldn't be involved in balance discussions at all. Balance doesn't mean that a build that can be beaten means it can't be overpowered. It takes alot more skill to beat ritspike than it does for ritspike to beat anything else. Plenty of top teams have gotten beaten by ritspike.

On another note, balancing should only be done in regards to top tier play. If not that, what are you using as a reference? RA? TA? What a joke. Any game that involves skill balances must have their balancing scaled to the highest level of play, or it doesn't mean anything at all. Understand that concept, then come back to this thread.

Are you referring to me?

I happen to be guildless at the moment, but I assure you I'm no scrub. I'm R3 Hero, R1 Glad, but I also never found much merit in grinding HA/TA, and that's not proof of anything other than how much time you're willing to commit to needless disappointment. However, I can play any character and any build in the game competently, and if you want an accurate show of my skills, throw me a guest sometime and I'll be happy to roll with you.

But do not assume I know nothing.

Consider the following example and maybe you'll have a better understanding of what I was saying:

If two players can play the same character build to varying degrees of success, the only thing that differentiates Player A from Player B is the relative skill of that player. Players who are more skillful can achieve a much greater potential than those with a lower level of skill.

This fact is only well represented when it comes to builds which actually take skill to play: i.e. "balanced" builds, where the greatest amount of potential effectiveness is derived directly from the skill of the player.

When you consider builds such as Shadow Prison Assassins, which have ridiculous power compared to the amount of player skill required to use them, the skill differential between players rapidly shrinks.

You have, in essence, what is generally called a "Noob Tube:" a way for bad players still learning the ropes of the game to play at a level that can compete with more experienced players (i.e. the Heavy). However, through use of better strategy, an experienced player still has the advantage.

But in games like Guild Wars, where you can only use what you put on your bar, you end up in situations where you just get killed regardless of experience, with only a few tricks you can use outside of what's on your bar (better positioning, use of terrain, arrow dodging). Shadow Prison Assassins can theoretically kill any kind of viable character, with little that can be done to save them. Cripshots stand a decent chance if they can interrupt the attack chain, but generally, you could have all the skill in the world and still get instagibbed by a SP Sin just the same as everyone else. If you bring skills to help you counter SP Sins, you put yourself at a disadvantage to everything else if the counter-skills don't apply to all situations; after all, you can only have 8.

I define degeneracy as character build overpowering player skill.

Since Anet can only nerf spells, not player skill, doesn't it make sense that the game should be geared more towards player skill, instead of builds?

Since "balanced" builds are the only builds that accurately showcase the skill of the player, doesn't it make sense to use "balanced" builds as the benchmark for overall game maintenance?

(understand that I am speaking in a general sense, don't post a specific example and believe you're undermining my opinion, obviously this view changes with respect to certain conditions, but this is generally what I hold to be true in Guild Wars)

Furthermore, such an elitist attitude is unwarranted in this instance, because while the top tier of this game does drive the metagame, they aren't the only people who play the team builds they make. You'd be a fool if you didn't know that competitive play with the same builds occurs at all tiers of the Guild Wars ladder, just at varying degrees of intensity. Do you have some presupposition that 500-800 are all mentally challenged idiots who run 8 Hamstorm warriors? No, they play exactly what they see on observer or read on the forums.

However, you're also forgetting that a large portion of the top tier also runs degenerate builds, so balancing around the top tier is a surefire way to guarantee that degenerate builds become the norm.

Just because you're in a top guild doesn't mean that you're the only guild in the game.

Vaga · Nov 07, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

what you just said is common knowledge robo why are you spewing on about it?

Yue · Nov 07, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Like I said, I misunderstood the meaning of your statement here " Did all top 50 guilds have problems with heroway in GvG? Probably not but it got hit anyway... what about rit spike? Im sure some top guilds beat that consistently does that mean it shouldnt have got nerfed?" However, that doesn't change the problem of your view on balance around top tier play.

Your reference to the top tier refers simply to the top of the ladder. I assure you there is a pretty big difference between "top tier" and top of the ladder. PvE was at the top of the ladder at one point, but they were never top tier. Top tier is a reference to skill and ability, not your position on the ladder. Balancing around the top of the ladder will guarantee you misinformation from scrubs that run gimmicks to reach the top. Balancing around the top tier will not. You may have misunderstand my reference to top tier, but that should put things in better perspective.

For the record, you can get rank 1 glad and rank 3 hero fairly easily in a day if you're somewhat competent at the game. There are dervish tanks that have rank 3 glads and rank 4 hero, so those kinds of credentials won't get you much of anywhere.

Captain Robo · Nov 07, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Hero and Glad are grinding titles for arenas I really don't care for. I really can't stand HA... at all. I've always liked GvG much more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaga

what you just said is common knowledge robo why are you spewing on about it?

In case you didn't get it from the other thread, attacking other people doesn't make you look cooler.

twicky_kid · Nov 07, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

In case you didn't get it from the other thread, attacking other people doesn't make you look cooler.

Elitism has always been a big problem among top players. Some show it more than others. There are some that can hold a solid conversation and argue their point of view. While others point fingers and call names. Maturity is something that is easily spotted among the current "top" community. You can't do much about it but push through their arrogance and not argue with them. It only fuels the fire. Lay down your opinions and move on. All of the community should have an input. That's the reason these forums are here right?

As far as Izzy only listening to the top players.....I don't think he listens to anyone really. A lot of the changes made to the game are so random and opposite of everything the community suggest. Then when he actually does something right (rit spirits while exhaustion with lowered energy cost) it gets reversed quickly.

In any case GW has and always will be and evolving game. Adapt and play or quit.

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Well, TA should actually have a voice, since it is an organised form of PvP. RA/AB/FA don't matter as they are random, but TA should get some consideration.

I think all formats are valid for consideration if the changes aren't going to resonate negatively to the other formats. Which is a stealth way of wondering why Shadow Prison wasn't nerfed into the ground ages ago.

Quote:

just like HA barely gets any balance.

Zergway, ritspike, jagged bones hex shit, heroway, paragon holding builds, Sandstorm, blah blah.

The list goes on, most of the really lame HA gimmicks have been addressed. The fact that shitway is the worst thing in the meta right now should be testament to how much better it is than it used to be.

Quote:

As far as Izzy only listening to the top players.....I don't think he listens to anyone really.

I think Izzy listens, he's just incompetent and doesn't know how to actually fix things.

Bankai · Nov 07, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

but I assure you I'm no scrub. I'm R3 Hero, R1 Glad,

If I were you, I wouldn't really boast with that.

Quote:

Shadow Prison Assassins can theoretically kill any kind of viable character, with little that can be done to save them. Cripshots stand a decent chance if they can interrupt the attack chain, but generally, you could have all the skill in the world and still get instagibbed by a SP Sin just the same as everyone else.

If you always die by SP sins, you suck at playing GW. Almost every bar currently has something to counter SP sins, but the only thing that prevents sucky players from using this is retardation. The only thing that I can think of that will die to an SP sin is a mesmer.

Turbobusa · Nov 07, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Less bashing, more skill discution please?

Riotgear · Nov 07, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Almost every bar currently has something to counter SP sins

Like what?

Most bars have either no defense against it, or fragile defense that needs good attention and timing to not get interrupted by Horns, and no practical way of recovering what goes through. The real counter to SP sins has been teammate support, and the way to work them into a build has always been to find a way to overload that support.

Div · Nov 07, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

We'll find out what izzy's up to soon, I'm guessing in the next 2ish days

Then we won't need all this guesswork.

Auron of Neon · Nov 07, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

blah blah blah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I'm R3 Hero, R1 Glad

o ok, that last bit summed it up.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 07, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

The only thing that I can think of that will die to an SP sin is a mesmer.

Lol scrub, lern2interrupt SP.

Frank Dudenstein · Nov 07, 2007, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Lol scrub, lern2interrupt SP.

With Gale....

Kaon · Nov 07, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

zhistortion imo

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 07, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

With Gale....

With Pleak obv.

kosh · Nov 07, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Like what?

Most bars have either no defense against it, or fragile defense that needs good attention and timing to not get interrupted by Horns, and no practical way of recovering what goes through. The real counter to SP sins has been teammate support, and the way to work them into a build has always been to find a way to overload that support.

hmmm

w/d- rend enc
w/e- shock
ele-gale,bsurge,b vision
monk- gurdian
mes- ins enc, Ineptitude,Clumsiness, hex breaker.
ranger- natural stride

so i think just about anyone can stop 1 aod/sp sin. thats not what gimmcky about them. the frigging jumping back and forth just make you waste time.
the other day we faced a guild with 4 sins 4 monks.. wtf?? yeah we won but why does every match seems to go to v.o.d now...